On 2021-05-18 15:46:25 Lesley said:
On 2021-05-18 15:40:52 Cunilinkiss said: Not the first time Lesley posted personal emails elsewhere...

You shared private nude images of wg's to others without consent. Go ahead open that can. Ystervark aka Cunilinkis.

Again ignore especially when he lives in a glass house ;) Guess you still have lots to learn. This man has been problematic long before you arrived and will be long after you have left.

I am both horrified and really disappointed at the responses here. (and particularly from normally sensible users. I'm looking at you @oraljim and @ Graham12342014). It's small wonder that teenage suicide rates are at an all-time high if this is the response that supposed adults have to bullying.

Most of the responses boil down to nothing more than i) victim-blaming. Whether you like it or not when someone reports abuse of any nature, and you respond with "You should have done X", the implication is that the victim is (at least partly) to blame for what happened because they failed to do X (Not to mention incredibly patronising to someone who has been in the industry for 17 years). I almost expect it from guys because we do it for everything from rape to physical abuse to emotional abuse, but I'm pretty horrified to see the ladies jumping in. @shakira I am especially disappointed to see you piling in after the same thing happened to you on your "no means no thread". How did you feel when you said guys are forcefully pushing your boundaries, and everyone leapt in with "You should have done xyz and it wouldn't have happened?" Don't answer that. I know how you felt because I saw your responses. You switched to being belligerently hyper-defensive so let's just say it did not feel good. But please tell us more about your "girl code" and ladies "standing together" and "not bashing each other"...

For what its worth there's almost universal consent amongst psychologists that "just ignore the bullies" is absolutely the wrong way to handle it (I went through this with a young teenager that I supported). It might make pragmatic sense given the power imbalance between advertisers and anonymous punters, but all it does is reaffirm the bully's sense that they can carry on treating people like that, and the abused's misplaced sense that they are somehow to blame.

Or ii) they're accusations of attention-seeking. Which, not surprisingly, almost always goes hand in hand with victim blaming. One says, "well it WAS your fault" ...and the other says "and it's not a big deal anyway so keep it to yourself". It's not a problem if we can all just pretend it's not there, so please just keep quiet. Somebody provides actual evidence of emotional abuse, and the so-called "community" (pah, don't make me laugh), basically form a queue to dismiss it and shame them into silence. Stellar work all round.

The only thing more pathetic than the response from the "community" is the response from ESA - banning the victim because the worst of the insults occurred on a pm and she had the temerity to speak out in public. Can't have that. ItS AgAiNsT ThE RuLeS. This is the BS that happens when you slavishly follow a tick-box approach to rule enforcement, with zero consideration to the particular context. The victim gets banned for sharing what her abuser said to her. Unbelievable. I'm fucking embarrassed and I don't even work for ESA.

Is this how this "community" would respond to physical abuse, or GBV? Is it just because emotional abuse doesn't leave visible marks that you think silencing the victims means we can act like it isn't there? Or is it that you have a 19th century understanding of what constitutes abuse that you don't think emotional bullying counts? I shudder to think that some of you are parents, and this is how you deal with bullying.

Some of the other responses are less damaging but equally ridiculous:
"Punters won't trust her either, whose private messages will she display next out of emotion...discretion is key on this site" -- it's not indiscretion if the other party consents (in fact explicitly requests) to have the info shared.

"Also you said that you were emotional when you posted hmmm you just contradicted your statement that your emotionally mature and have an EQ." Having a high EQ doesn't mean you never get or act emotional. In the same way that having a high IQ doesn't mean that you never do anything stupid.

"I recall from the messages between you and Casanata that you posted, that you see yourself as above his level." Yup, in response to the more than a little patronising "Lol, yeah that's why you are an escort right. Little girl you are not on my level." I know that not everyone is as involved in this as I am, so just for the record this is how it went: Lesley posted a reasonable topic about negative comments on reviews. Cassanata responded in a sexist and patronising way. *I* called him out on this and his history of making offensive (as well as hypocritical) comments. Lesley responded to Cassanata in a way that was probably a bit dismissive, but not much more than that. And then he sent a barrage of abusive PMs to both Lesley and myself. It means nothing to me because I enjoy the same anonymity that he does. Lesley does not have that luxury, and he has patently used that power imbalance to insult, demean and cause emotional distress.

On 2021-05-18 19:35:25 JP82 said:
I am both horrified and really disappointed at the responses here. (and particularly from normally sensible users. I'm looking at you @oraljim and @ Graham12342014).

I don't know what Graham said but I have said absolutely nothing that blames any "victim" or anything like that. All I have said on this topic is that it is best to ignore trolls because they are just trying to break you down, and that you must just believe in your own worth. If that is bad advice then frankly, you sir, have a problem not me. You really do have the bull by the udders here mate.

Reason why I never comment on these types of threads.. we dont all think the same.

On 2021-05-18 20:40:08 Curt said:
Reason why I never comment on these types of threads.. we dont all think the same.

It doesn't help that some people can't read. I actually thought I was giving Lesley good advice but according to Mr. Shining Knight I was "victim blaming". Just goes to show - no good deed (or intention) goes unpunished.

On 2021-05-18 20:44:10 oraljim said:
On 2021-05-18 20:40:08 Curt said: Reason why I never comment on these types of threads.. we dont all think the same.
It doesn't help that some people can't read. I actually thought I was giving Lesley good advice but according to Mr. Shining Knight I was "victim blaming". Just goes to show - no good deed (or intention) goes unpunished.

My point exactly..

On 2021-05-18 20:35:42 oraljim said:
On 2021-05-18 19:35:25 JP82 said: I am both horrified and really disappointed at the responses here. (and particularly from normally sensible users. I'm looking at you @oraljim and @ Graham12342014).

I don't know what Graham said but I have said absolutely nothing that blames any "victim" or anything like that. All I have said on this topic is that it is best to ignore trolls because they are just trying to break you down, and that you must just believe in your own worth. If that is bad advice then frankly, you sir, have a problem not me. You really do have the bull by the udders here mate.

You seem to have missed the bits that are relevant from my post so I'll just re-iterate them here, and try be more explicit in explaining why they apply to your advice:

1) "when someone reports abuse of any nature, and you respond with "You should have done X", the implication is that the victim is (at least partly) to blame for what happened because they failed to do X".

(In your particular case X = "ignore the idiots". Is this somehow not clear? In sharing the pm Lesley highlighted her abuse and got herself banned, and your response was "You should've just ignored it". Which although its dressed up like sensible and polite advice, it has the unavoidable implication that her having failed to ignore the trolls is partly why she is in her current predicament.

Victim-blaming is almost never an explicit "it's your fault", its by implication, it's a "I'm sorry this happened *BUT* ..."you shouldn't have been drunk", "you shouldn't have gone down the alley", "you should've called a taxi", etc etc etc.)

and 2) "For what its worth there's almost universal consent amongst psychologists that "just ignore the bullies" is absolutely the wrong way to handle it (I went through this with a young teenager that I supported). It might make pragmatic sense given the power imbalance between advertisers and anonymous punters, but all it does is reaffirm the bully's sense that they can carry on treating people like that, and the abused's misplaced sense that they are somehow to blame."

(its just bad advice. It would have prevented her from getting banned I guess, but it does nothing to deal with either the abuser's behaviour or the actual emotional trauma)

Look, I suffer from sometimes quite debilitating depression. And people, including my mother, try to "cheer you up" and say things like "You should count your blessings". She means well, but its a terrible thing to say to someone with depression because it makes them feel guilty for not being happy with what they've got, on top of already being depressed. Similarly, I'm sure you meant well but your advice is not helpful.

So I will apologise for my tone. My anger was more for the more overt criticisms of Lesley. You were singled out because like I said you're normally sensible. I was more disappointed in your post because while I'm sure you mean well it is not good advice. So I'm sorry - the overall angry tone of the post was not intended for you.

Jp82

I did not want to respond on this post anymore, and then I read what you wrote.

Today was pretty rough, watching how this whole thing spiraled out of control.
Seeing what was said here, and in personal messages, having had to pay a R1500 fine (Which A kind hearted punter paid on my behalf) for breaking the rules. To get my ad unbanned.

This certainly did not go well for me today.

You encapsulated exactly what the issue was about. In one post I saw more humanity and respect than I have ever witnessed on this site.

Thank you for that. You have made me feel like I don't need to defend myself.

For those who don't understand why I posted the messages in public, I wanted everyone to see the trolling and maybe something can be done about this on the forum/Esa. I wasn't aware of the policy against posting personal messages, although I did get direct consent from the person.

He has insulted and verbally assaulted many punters and wg's alike. What type of society have we become that this has become the norm? That trolling and verbal abuse is okay?

I had enough, and I was upset yes, because no matter how hardcore we would like to come across here, no matter how much we pretend these comments and insults don't affect us, they do. We are human.

I thought I was doing a good thing, putting a bully in his place. After all I have seen him tear apart many contributors on here and wasn't about to take it laying down.

So I stood up for myself, and this here above, all these posts (Most of them) were in favor of the person I stood up against.

For every person who sent a message, or called to show support, I am grateful. For every person that said something kind, thank you. It went a long way today.

I know who I am and what I have done. I know I don't abuse others behind an anonymous profile, I am open for all to see.

This thread makes me smile at the hypocrisy of some of these virtue signalers.
The very same who respond to my posts in a bullying and intimidating way calling me a "pseudo-intellectual".

JP you really need to stop editing context. My message was actually in response to something that *KICKASS* wrote, not Lesley. He was saying is hard to ignore people like Casanatstra because they feel they can do as they please. I said what they feel doesn't matter. I also completely and utterly disagree with your sentiment that ""when someone reports abuse of any nature, and you respond with "You should have done X", the implication is that the victim is (at least partly) to blame for what happened because they failed to do X". If that is really your opinion then it is essentially impossible to ever give anybody any advice ever. There is absolutely *ZERO* implication of anything.

Bottom line: I think the way Lesley was treated was terrible and I am glad I didn't have the day she did. I think you are seriously confused about basic English and simple communications that had absolutely nothing to do with you. I never for even a second thought Lesley was to blame for anything so all of your psycho-babble about implications and crap like that is just absolute nonsense. If you have followed me *AT ALL* on the forums you should bloody well know that I don't ever ever EVER *IMPLY* anything. I come right out and say what I mean. I am now, and always have been, as subtle as a thermonuclear device. Stop looking for hidden meanings and complex motivations where naked truth and simple ones are present.